Thaivisa is far and away the biggest web-based forum catering for expats in Thailand, and Thaiophiles abroad. As with every successful and expanding enterprise, it has its promoters and detractors; it is loved and hated, envied and dismissed, praised and sneered at. No one is indifferent. Virtually every farang in the country with an Internet connection, whether or not they contribute directly, checks out the threads now and again. (They may pretend they don’t ;-)A group of senior expats administers the website. With a wealth of knowledge about the Land Of Smiles accumulated in some cases over a decade or more, they describe their goal as building “the most complete and updated website for the expatriate community in Thailand regarding visas and immigration issues”.
Common gripes are that the moderators are too severe, freedom of speech is suppressed, certain ‘inoffensive’ topics are deemed off-limits, controversial or critical threads locked, poor advice is handed out willy-nilly. Members are accused of spending much of the time bickering amongst themselves, or insulting not only new members, but also Thailand, Thais and the Thai way of life. How fair are these criticisms?
‘George’, founder and chief admin of Thaivisa, chats about these and other issues…
FB: George - how long have you been in Thailand, what did you do before, where are you from?
G: I've been in the IT industry most of my life, I'm just a computer and forum freak who specializes in SEO, an old geezer from cold Scandoland, a long-term Asia expat who will always be staying in Thailand, and I just love it here!
FB: As founder, do you have sole control, or do you have partners (other than commercial)?
G: It is a communal effort with the moderators and other administrators offering help, advice and opinions. I, however, have the final say. The admins have constant contact via email, phone and chat.
FB: 78,000 members and counting. A record of over 9,000 users on-line simultaneously. Did you have any inkling that things would grow this fast when you set it up 7 years ago? Did you always intend that it would become a business, or was it just set up for fun originally?
G: Just for fun originally, but the demand was so strong and the response so enthusiastic that in order to keep the forum running smoothly we had to end up getting our own servers, this necessitated implementing advertising.
FB: The commercial benefits of reaching such a size must be considerable?
G: As are the costs. We are reinvesting in new servers and have four full time employees for programming, server maintenance, legal issues and, member support etc.
FB: How about the other side of the coin, the problems of managing such a large group of people who can (and do) say virtually what they want, at any given moment, 24 hours a day?
G: It's not an easy task, but it’s great fun with a few exceptions. There are lots of foreigners who don't understand the laws of Thailand and think that Thai laws are the same as their own countries. We should be more polite to our host country in my opinion, and not be too negative about Thailand or Thai people. Thailand is a relatively young democracy and we as foreigners need to understand that. To post on Thaivisa is a privilege, not a right, but we try to accommodate everyone who follows our rules.
We have been organizing member meet-ups and parties in Bangkok, Pattaya, Chiang Mai, Surin and other places, and it's amazing to see members get together and see the real faces behind their avatars. To be honest, haven't we all sometimes posted a nasty forum comment from behind the keyboard after a few too many beers, and regretted it the next morning :)
FB: What can you say about the specifically Thai constraints, such as lese majeste? How often do problems crop up in this area? Can you cite any specific cases?
G: I'd rather not. We have implemented control routines that flag any activity that could be a problem. See above response.
FB: How many moderators are involved? How do you recruit them?
G: Seventeen moderators and they are usually regular members who have shown a history of intelligent and informative, non-aggressive posts, but they are almost always recommended by the moderating team, and it is a group decision to bring them into the team.
FB: Do you have any idea of the member split – in terms of nationalities, actual expats/non-residents? I was thinking of IP analysis, not perfect, but a fair indication.
G: We did a survey a few years ago, here it is.
I think it’s fairly accurate and this reminds me to do a new member survey again very soon, should be interesting. Thaivisa has extremely high traffic, here some examples:
Big Boards
Google Trends
Google Adplanner Website profile
Truehits
(Interview continues after the Google Analytics stats image...)
FB: Legally, how does the forum stand on liability with respect to advice and information provided either by members in open forum, or in your information sections, should readers act on this advice and find that it is misleading, or erroneous?
G: Please use the report button or email me, and we take care of it. We state quite clearly in the forum rules:
Use of our forumsFB: TV has its critics. Some suggest that the polarized views, constant carping and insulting, cast the Thai-based farangs in a particularly poor light. Then there’s what some see as a constant belittling of Thailand, Thais and Thai policies (e.g. in discussions about visa regulations, but there are multiple examples across the boards). It may be only an outspoken minority, but does this concern you?
"Please remember that we cannot actively monitor the contents of, and are not responsible for, any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Thaivisa.com or any entity associated with Thaivisa.com"
"Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately via the report function. We do have the ability to remove objectionable messages and will make every effort to do so if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process so please realize we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately. Responding to objectionable messages is discouraged".
G: Yes, it does concern both me and the moderating team but we have to strike a balance between allowing people their opinions and racist and denigrating language. We do our best. At times we fail, and at times we succeed. It is a very large board with a very active membership and unfortunately, we cannot be in all places all the time.
FB: In a similar vein, do you regret the number of people that restrict their postings, or leave the forum altogether, because of the aggressive, insulting responses they often receive to questions posed in good faith? Is there nothing that could be done about this, in terms of moderation policy?
G: Members are just that, members and most regular posters are quite aware that they can be proactive in helping the moderating team by reporting such posts. As stated above, we cannot be in all places all the time and it is up to the membership to help police and maintain civility.
FB: Have you ever looked into this and come to any conclusions about which nationality(ies) is/are the main guilty party/ies in terms of stereotyping, polarised views?
G: No, not really. My experience has been that bitter, unhappy and aggressive people can come from anywhere.
FB: In a way it’s a lose-lose situation for the moderators. Too much interference and they are accused of being heavy-handed, of having a ‘God complex’. Too little, and people complain that new members posting in good faith are being scared off, that posters are showing a lack of respect for Thailand. One of the more frequent moans is about moderation policy and censorship. So what would you say to those who complain about so-called moderator overkill, draconian measures, when the topics stray into 'sensitive' areas (and I'm not referring to lese majeste issues, take topics such as bar girls, or naming and shaming, for example). Can you sum up your views, and TV policy, in this respect?
G: If someone has been wrongly treated by a mod or admin on the forum, just drop me a line and we will investigate it. We have been advised by our lawyers to be very careful about commenting on certain issues, and we practise some "self censorship": in these areas. We have high ranking officials who read our forum, and the laws about libel and defamation are harsh.
It is important to realize that in Thailand nothing detrimental to any business or individual is permissible because of Thailand's strong laws against negative comments about individuals, businesses or officials. Defamation is both a civil and criminal offence in Thailand.
The final judgement can be ANY amount which the court approves, including jail time. It is in line with the perceived amount that the defamatory statements have cost the business. So, if the business claims you have cost them 2 million baht in lost business and reputation, they can then claim this in a civil suit.
Thailand is VERY active now in bringing defamation cases to the courts. With the constant battle between the governments & groups, the courts are establishing precedents that MAY NOT be in line with Western standards of free speech. These precedents WILL be applied to EVERYONE in Thailand.
Also, foreigners are just starting to realize this type of ‘strict’ law applies. We are beginning to see more and more defamation suits being brought from foreigners – and they are winning.
There is a standard of good taste that needs to be maintained. Some of the posts on Thaivisa.com definitely cross the line. It is one thing to make observations and report in a balanced fashion - but BASHING a business or “singling out” a business person is a definite no-no. All too often I see forum boards being used as a battle ground between businesses/individuals – either spamming or trashing. We have been advised to tighten our grip on this type of posting. Eventually someone is going to get pissed off enough to file a lawsuit.
This is a dilemma for us at Thaivisa, and we need to protect our members and the website from lawsuits. Please follow the forum rules is all we ask for.
FB: Some members were concerned about the commercial tie-up with The Nation, a publication that generally maintains a pro-establishment policy at the political level. Has this link affected the way you manage forum content in any way?
G: No, The Nation has no effect on content. No moderator or administrator is allowed to use their personal political opinions in moderating the board but rather they implement and enforce the rules.
FB: If you had to sum it up in a couple of lines, what advice would you give to a would-be expat, single guy, who has spent a couple of weeks on holiday in the country, and is now thinking of retiring to Thailand? :-)
G: Stay for 6 months before committing yourself. Thailand is a wonderful place to live, but not everyone is cut out for expat life and not everyone adjusts well to living in a totally different culture.
FB: If there are any other points you would like to make, e.g. plans for the future for Thaivisa, feel free…
G: What I would like to add is that Thai Visa is more than just a group of moderators and members, but a huge community that I hope can work together to make it a place where people can go to not only learn valuable information, gain help, but also friends.
We have a lot of plans for the future, within a few weeks we will do a big upgrade of the forum software, and there are some interesting new services to be launched, a new blog portal and an expat directory that we are very excited about. If our members have further ideas how we can improve, feel free to email me at george[at]thaivisa.com
Also, we are always looking into partnerships with other Thailand related businesses, just give me a call!
Kind regards
George
Follow me on Twitter
My Facebook
Thaivisa Facebook
______________________________
Ed. Thanks to George for taking the time to talk openly about Thaivisa, its plans for the future, the difficulties it faces, and some of the more controversial issues that surface about the forum around the web, now and again. One of the most surprising answers he gave was that there are only 17 moderators; it must be almost impossible to cover the vast number of posts that appear each day, and I can see how the ‘report post’ function is critical, as well as the involvement of the community itself in self-moderation.
The exchanges on Thai politics are typical of the discussions that show farang contributors in the worst possible light. In certain threads the occasional measured responses are easily outnumbered by some of the most bitter and polarised unpleasantness I've seen on the web. The antagonists line up in opposing yellow and red camps, attempting to strike a killer blow via their keyboards. PAD and DAAD have got nothing on the Thaivisa virtual soldiers in terms of intolerance and venom, when it comes to politics.
But while we may sometimes carp about some of the on-line personas who frequent Thaivisa, you can't argue with the wealth of expertise to be found amongst its members. It regularly proves its worth in providing information to newbies, as well as coming up trumps in a tough situation. Just a couple of days ago I was contacted by someone in England whose father was very ill in Pattaya. His daughter was desperately trying to get him admitted into hospital, but only recently the family had been hit by a £6,000 bill from one of the expat hospitals there, and it was looking increasingly as though someone had helped themselves from their father’s Thai bank account to boot. 3am in Thailand – and she was trying to find information about cheaper Pattaya hospitals, English-speaking contacts. Less than 20 minutes later from TV’s Pattaya forum I had suggestions, a name and a phone number, with more to come a couple of hours later. To say his daughter was relieved was an understatement. Stuck on the other side of the world, her father unable to communicate with her, she was at a loss what to do – and even the British Embassy in Bangkok was fobbing her off. It’s in situations like this that on-line communities such as Thaivisa really show their value.
Thiavisa has its competitors, with a few more relaxed forums out there. But the latter can afford to be more laid-back, mostly having far fewer members, and therefore being more easily managed and moderated as a result. The proliferation of blogs also provide some essential insights, and Richard Barrow's network in particular (forum, blogs, chat rooms, news) is a superb and well-written major resource about Thailand. What they all have in common, even if they are prone to error now and again, is an underlying honesty and generally speaking, a lack of politically-motivated agenda. Forums and blogs have at times become a vital source of information when the traditional media is either being stifled or manipulated, as we are witnessing right now with the unrest over the presidential elections in Iran. Hundreds of thousands of internet-connected Iranians are getting news out via blogs and emails.
It can be a bit difficult sifting through all the noise on the likes of Thaivisa, and for a newbie, searching through all the data can be daunting. Still perhaps this is being addressed in the forthcoming updates George refers to. I hope the blog portal will be open to the independents out there!
(Scroll down for more stats, and a summary of Thailand's laws of libel by Thaivisa's lawyers...)
From Thaivisa's lawyers, some more detail on the subject of defamation:
Defamation of Character
Criminal Liability
Criminal liability for defamation is covered by Sections 326 to 333 of the Thai Penal Code, which provide for punishment by imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine not exceeding Baht 20,000, or both. The Penal Code also provides that any imputation made upon a deceased person to a third party, which is calculated to impair the reputation of his/her father, mother, spouse, or child, or to expose the deceased to hatred or contempt, is an offense. Defamation committed by means of publication of a document, drawing, painting, cinematograph, picture, or letters made visible by any means, gramophone record, or any other recording or broadcast is punishable by imprisonment not exceeding two years and a fine not exceeding Baht 200,000.
The Thai Civil and Commercial Code (CCC) has defamation provisions, but does not distinguish between libel and slander. In the chapter on Wrongful Acts, Section 423 of the CCC, it states that any person who, contrary to the truth, asserts or circulates as a fact that which is injurious to the reputation or credit of another, or his earnings or prosperity in any manner, shall compensate the injured party for any resulting damage. Being unaware that a statement is false does not constitute a defense, provided the person ought to have known it was false. Section 447 of the CCC gives the Court a right, upon application of the aggrieved party, to order other measures, either instead of or in addition to payment of damages, for the rehabilitation of the injured party’s reputation.
Claims for damages arising from defamation are barred after one year from the date the wrongful act and person responsible became known to the injured person, or ten years from the day when the wrongful act was committed (Section 448). If, however, damages claimed arise from a wrongful act which is also punishable under criminal law for which a longer period is prescribed, then such period also applies to the civil action. For the purpose of achieving faster results, criminal actions are filed much more frequently than civil suits. Defamation actions are often reported in the press.
Defense Against Criminal Libel
There are three defenses to a charge of criminal libel:
- The statement is true, unless the defamatory imputation is of a personal nature and would not be of benefit to the public.
- A fair comment was made in good faith -
- By way of self-justification or defense.
- For the protection of any legitimate interest.
- Upon the status of an official in the exercise of his functions.
- By way of fair report in the proceedings of any.
- The opinions or statements expressed during proceedings were by the parties involved, their lawyers, or their witnesses.
Civil Liability
There are two defenses to a civil action for defamation:
- Justification, where the defendant in a civil action may escape liability if he/she can prove that the statement was substantially justified, i.e. true, but more than just true. There has to be a valid reason for having made the statement even if true. It is not an absolute defense to a criminal prosecution for libel to prove that the statement was simply true.
- Privileged communication, where a person may make a communication in good faith to persons having a rightful interest in it, even though the information given may later be found to be erroneous. For example, in Dika (Supreme) Court Case No. 938/2519, the Thai Bankers Association circulated a notice to its members warning them that the action of a group of persons which included the plaintiff might be damaging to the members’ business.
Opinions or statements expressed during court proceedings are privileged.
Another form of privileged communication involves statements made by members of the Senate or the House of Representatives of the National Assembly when stating facts or opinions or in casting votes. No charge or other manner of action can be brought against such legislative members. This privilege extends to printers and publishers of the Legislative Minutes and to persons permitted by the presiding member to give statements of fact or opinion at such sittings.
Insult to Character
There is another offense under the Penal Code, namely insult, as provided for under Section 393 of the Penal Code stating that whoever insults any person in his presence or by publication shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding one month or a fine not exceeding Baht 1,000, or both.
Insult is also one of several grounds for divorce.
Defamation is more serious than mere insult. Defamation must involve publication to third parties and must lower the plaintiff in the eyes of right-thinking members of society. However, insult does not have such an effect and need not take place before any person other than the plaintiff.
The need for insult provisions in the law is better appreciated with some knowledge of the Thai language and of the Thai mental approach to life and social relations. It is a characteristic of Thais that they are particularly sensitive to personal abuse, which is taken very seriously. The Thai language contains many colorful expletives which, while not defamatory, are exceedingly hurtful to the sensitive Thai. Such phrases lose their significance in translation and might seem comparatively innocuous to westerners.
Examples include aye sat, meaning “you are such a base and low creature”, or aye haa, meaning “you are physically sick”, while aye baa means “you are mentally sick”.
For many reasons, but principally because of the delay and cost of litigation in Thailand, courts see few insult actions except as a basis for divorce. Insults, however, can lead to nasty altercations and confrontations, so being polite at all times cannot be stressed often enough.
While damages awarded in defamation cases are minimal, the time and expense consumed in prosecuting or defending these actions can be massive.It is important to realize that in Thailand nothing detrimental to any business or individual is permissible because of Thailand's strong laws against negative comments about individuals, businesses or officials. Defamation is both a civil and criminal offense in Thailand.
The final judgment can be ANY amount which the court approves, including jail time. It is in line with the perceived amount that the defamatory statements have cost the business. So, if the business claims you have cost them 2 million baht in lost business and reputation, they can then claim this in a civil suit.
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